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Edward Shapiro, MD, discussed his new book "Finding a Place to Stand: Developing Self-Reflective Institutions, Leaders and Citizens" (Phoenix Publishing House, 2020) with his colleague, Jonathan Kolb, MD. This book draws on psychodynamic systems thinking to offer a new understanding of the journey from being an individual to joining society as a citizen. With detailed stories, the steps – and the conscious and unconscious linkages – from being a family member, to entering outside groups, to taking up and making sense of institutional roles, illuminate the process of claiming the citizen role. With the help of leaders who recognise and utilise the dynamics of social systems, there may be hope for us as citizens to use our institutional experiences to discover a place to stand. This conversation was recorded in the BPSI library on June 26, 2020."